Code Compliance: Replacing more than three boards on a dock requires a permit

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Replacing more than three boards on a dock requires a permit

Marco resident and attorney William Moore respectfully disagreed with Marco Island's Code Compliance Board on Tuesday, Nov. 13. The lawyer lost.

Moore received notice that he failed to obtain the proper permit to replace decking on a boat dock at 1270 Stone Court, a property owned by Margaret Moore. He wrote back to the city denying any violation of city code.

On Tuesday, he testified before the board during a hearing for noncompliance. Moore admitted that he replaced approximately 70 percent of the dock's decking. He believed he did so as maintenance and not as a replacement or new build.

During his testimony, Moore cited several sections of the city's building code, pointing out ambiguities he felt supported his conclusion. He explained the 1985 home had a dock constructed in 1987. Over the years, several planks were replaced as necessary due to tidal damage. The original 19-foot by 34-foot dock was built by Marco Marine Construction and was built to code, Moore said.

"There were so many splinters and cracks that people were getting splinters from it," he said.

That damage, coupled with the fact the property was sometimes rented, led Moore to replace planks and resurface the dock. His work did not affect the structure or pilings, he said.

"I just saw this as maintenance."

Bob Mahar, chief building official for the City of Marco Island, told the board he visited the location to see if Moore could be right. His inspection revealed that most of the decking had been replaced, then sealed or painted with a substance.

"This deck is pristine; all brand new wood," Mahar said. "There was no weathering on any other part of the dock." Mahar said a can of paint or sealing material was sitting by the dock, and he could tell that new planking and screws had been used.

The Code Enforcement Board asked if the electrical had been checked. Mahar said he did not check it because that would need to be done by an electrical inspector. If a permit had been issued, an electrical inspection would have been standard practice, he said.

In a discussion on repair versus replacement, Mahar admitted it was not specifically spelled out in the code. Practice dictated that plank replacement of more than three boards required a permit, he said.

"In essence, docks are on top of city property," Mahar said. "There are riparian rights, but property lines end at the seawall."

Moore continued to explain that his repair was not a result of damage.

"We have a dock that wore out," he said. "Just because Marco Island has been making people get permits for small jobs that doesn't make it right."

Mahar pointed out that Moore might have another code violation if he did the work himself on a property that was rented. Regardless of the amount of time a property is rented, a contractor is required. The owner-builder exemption only applies to homes that are not used as rental properties, Mahar said.

The compliance board moved to require Moore to obtain a permit from Marco Island's building department within 30 days. After that, inspectors will review his work. Failing to get a permit will cost Moore $250 administrative fee and $100 per day until compliance.

After the ruling, Moore expressed his displeasure with the decision.

"There are too many boards, too many permits and too many egos involved."

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Comments » 48

porschett writes:

How many members of the board own a dock? Any how many are condo nazies?

ajm3s writes:

Another code that needs revision if not elimination. Really, maintenance now requires a permit. Regulations gone bad!

Marco-Bob writes:

Another example of an out-of-control governmental department.

marco826 writes:

Nothing short of Insanity..Bureaucratic B.S....Fire them all.

MrBreeze writes:

Now if the deck was in disrepair Code Compliance would come running and write violations for it.

Here you have a homeowner and resident working on his home and taking pride in his dock and now he will be fined for doing "pristine" work according to the Building Offical.

This is where this code control has gone way to far in its powers. The time has come to dissolve that department totally. They believe through fines, peneltys, and permits they can then control Marco Island. And do not forget you may need a contractor to do your "pristine" work.

What a complete joke.

captnjimbo writes:

Agree this is a little over the top.

When I do my deck, I will replace three and take a coffee break.

Then I will replace three.

The dock was permitted to be over the city, county,water but it still belongs to the homewoner who is responsible for it's upkeep...this is a cosmetic fix...I too think it is an overreach.

JohninMarco writes:

Consider all the work done inside the firehouse next to the water dept. and not one permit being pulled. Well maybe the next step will be counting the nails used.

RayPray writes:

If something goes wrong, a good way to outwit the code Nazis is to drape a blue tarp over the problem or wrap orange construction tape around it, or both.

There was a home owner in Naples got away with this for 3 or 4 years after hurricane Wilma, before he got around to repairing the roof & pool cage.

Nobody ever rushed him as long as there was the appearance that he was doing something....

1Paradiselost writes:

What a bunch of BS!

A tax paying homeowner can't work on His or Her own property?

That's just plain sick!

What else won't they let you do?

laslic writes:

Mmmm..... Marco Island a coastal community, no building codes.. homeowner does what he wants to.. Hurricane comes in - total destruction.. Blame the building inspectors like in Punta Gorda for the devastation! Not the homeowner's responsibility to get licensed contractors to follow the standards.

marcofriend writes:

in response to laslic:

Mmmm..... Marco Island a coastal community, no building codes.. homeowner does what he wants to.. Hurricane comes in - total destruction.. Blame the building inspectors like in Punta Gorda for the devastation! Not the homeowner's responsibility to get licensed contractors to follow the standards.

Marco Island does not need building codes for cosmetic maintenance. Didn't the City Council just discuss colors for boat covers because the planning department wants to specify colors for people to purchase?
The man could have left his dilapidated decking in place and no one would have bothered him. Instead he upgraded, made it safer, and helped improve it.
We need to stop this "BIG GOVERNMENT" stuff now and quit harrassing the residents.

duhuhuhha writes:

Actually the building department follows the laws set forth by statutes in the state of Florida, don't take it so personal. By law, if they don't perform these duties in accordance with laws, then they can be sued or fired or both. It is a long, complicated set of rules and regulations that further require adherence to other codes which require adherence to ever more rules and regulations for every aspect of our lives.
So next time you vote for your state Legislators, remember is is those very elected officials who have made these laws which require these public servants in the building departments to enforce.

Many of you are a bunch of whiny, blame everyone but themselves, piece of..... oh, never mind... Typical complainers and trolls many of you are.

duhuhuhha writes:

in response to rolomokat:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)

as a repair contractor working on Marco, I have seen your type of home many times. Death traps waiting for the next buyer to come and purchase. Your type of "Mr. Fixit" home is a major reason "home inspectors" have such a profitable life. And you are the exact same person who would scream the loudest when you tried to purchase a home kept safe and current by a "Mr. Fixit". these laws and codes are in force due to the HUGE amount of death and injury to others caused by improper renovations and upkeep. i can think of a thousand reasons permits should be pulled for many jobs, but I can't think of one reason why others lives should be left up to people like you.

RayPray writes:

in response to duhuhuhha:

as a repair contractor working on Marco, I have seen your type of home many times. Death traps waiting for the next buyer to come and purchase. Your type of "Mr. Fixit" home is a major reason "home inspectors" have such a profitable life. And you are the exact same person who would scream the loudest when you tried to purchase a home kept safe and current by a "Mr. Fixit". these laws and codes are in force due to the HUGE amount of death and injury to others caused by improper renovations and upkeep. i can think of a thousand reasons permits should be pulled for many jobs, but I can't think of one reason why others lives should be left up to people like you.

"as a repair contractor working on Marco"

>>> $$$

"Death traps"

"due to the HUGE amount of death and injury"

>>> All around me the This Old House Marco Holocaust

>>> Local 'contractors' prowling around snitching on their neighbors to code Nazis.

>>> Why for any problem I will hire someone down from Bonita or Ft Myers to fix.

MrBreeze writes:

Duhuh, Again another "contractor" on Marco. Please sir list your resume on here so we can all read it.

I will say like many other "contractors" on Marco you have not been here many years, moved from another state at least 500 miles away, will say how large a business you had in the other state, had many years experience and will state this is the "normal" cost of items on Marco this will be your position. You will pull up in your decaled vehicle which by the way is also your personal vehicle. You will have your cheap sunglasses, shorts and a clipboard. The homeowner will hear your resume and you will try to convince them that this is all "code applied" and "permit necessary". You will charge top dollar as you believe you are worth it. You may or may not get the job. If you do not you will watch the job and then rat out to the City if there is no permit in revenge.
This is the "Marco Contractor".

Please sir list you resume along with so all of us so called "Mr. Fix-it" can read it.

ajm3s writes:

in response to duhuhuhha:

Actually the building department follows the laws set forth by statutes in the state of Florida, don't take it so personal. By law, if they don't perform these duties in accordance with laws, then they can be sued or fired or both. It is a long, complicated set of rules and regulations that further require adherence to other codes which require adherence to ever more rules and regulations for every aspect of our lives.
So next time you vote for your state Legislators, remember is is those very elected officials who have made these laws which require these public servants in the building departments to enforce.

Many of you are a bunch of whiny, blame everyone but themselves, piece of..... oh, never mind... Typical complainers and trolls many of you are.

"In a discussion on repair versus replacement, Mahar admitted it was not specifically spelled out in the code. Practice dictated that plank replacement of more than three boards required a permit, he said."

So you are accepting a 3 board maximum for repair of decking without a permit? Get real, this is NOT a state statute, nor a dependency to other codes unless the basis is sheer foolishness.

http://www.mde.state.md.us/programs/W...

Consider how the Collier County dealt with non-conforming docks in 2000:

http://www.colliergov.net/Modules/Sho...

God help us all! Even your complain of those that "are a bunch of whiny, blame everyone but themselves, piece of......"

You sound like a whiner yourself. Welcome to the club. Or are you carving out your own clique of whiners, those that are superior of other whiners, because "it is a long, complicated set of rules and regulations that further require adherence to other codes which require adherence to ever more rules and regulations for every aspect of our lives". Sounds like a government rationalization/response to idiocy or a city regulation without proper review, AGAIN!

Speaking of proper review, when is Mr. Pinter going to have a meeting with those folks that raised concerns regarding ROW standards at a Planning Board meeting at the request of Mr. Lazarus in the spring. Boy how time flies!

I guess it will go into the city files under "NOT FIT FOR PUBLIC REVIEW".

Folks wake up, for God's sake its your island NOT the city administration!!!!!!

ajm3s writes:

in response to marcofriend:

Marco Island does not need building codes for cosmetic maintenance. Didn't the City Council just discuss colors for boat covers because the planning department wants to specify colors for people to purchase?
The man could have left his dilapidated decking in place and no one would have bothered him. Instead he upgraded, made it safer, and helped improve it.
We need to stop this "BIG GOVERNMENT" stuff now and quit harrassing the residents.

Marco Island Property Owners I believe you have another request from the community.

Stop this madness!!!!

Folks this is evidence of local building code on steroids. May I suggest drug testing for all city employees for performance enhancing drugs. For surely it has influenced the regulatory review process.

LadueVGilleo writes:

Amazing. As an attorney, one would think he would be thorough enough to ensure he was within the rules of law. If he had made the phone calls, got the permits, followed simple procedures, made the necessary inquiries, and lined up the required inspections none of this would have happened. None of it. Did his dock work meet requirements? Nobody knows. Does the dock sealent meet the requirements so it doesn't polluted the water? Nobody knows. Does the dock's electrical meet requirements so the perhaps some guest doesn't get electrocuted? Nobody knows. Only children should be allowed to be this irresponsible. Wouldn't it be something if the city makes him tear down his dock? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Too bad he is not a doctor, because he just shot himself in the foot.

duhuhuhha writes:

in response to MrBreeze:

Duhuh, Again another "contractor" on Marco. Please sir list your resume on here so we can all read it.

I will say like many other "contractors" on Marco you have not been here many years, moved from another state at least 500 miles away, will say how large a business you had in the other state, had many years experience and will state this is the "normal" cost of items on Marco this will be your position. You will pull up in your decaled vehicle which by the way is also your personal vehicle. You will have your cheap sunglasses, shorts and a clipboard. The homeowner will hear your resume and you will try to convince them that this is all "code applied" and "permit necessary". You will charge top dollar as you believe you are worth it. You may or may not get the job. If you do not you will watch the job and then rat out to the City if there is no permit in revenge.
This is the "Marco Contractor".

Please sir list you resume along with so all of us so called "Mr. Fix-it" can read it.

I have lived on Marco Island since the early 70s. Not that should make a bit of difference, or is any of your business, nor does it make me a better person, or less important than you. And god forbid i leave my resume here. Suffice to say, I am licensed by the state as a professional who requires many years of experience before even being allowed to obtain that license, Experience I gained working here on this island for over 25 years. Never owned a business before living here. I have MORE than paid my dues, am well respected for my abilities, I came here as a laborer in my teens and have gained the experience and continued my formal education required to become an expert in my trades. I am considered by my peers as quite knowledgeable in what I do and by my customers as honest and sincere. I live a simple life, drive a simple vehicle, provide uniforms for my employees and wear one myself. The homes I work in here on Marco are valued far in excess that which I live in, and i work hard to help my customers keep them that way. So before you decide to put your foot further into your mouth, consider that another human being can be honest, sincere, live here most all of their lives, and get fulfillment from a job well done, without getting rich off all those around me through deceit or lies, and STILL understand the purpose of a building department and the need for rules... And my resume of work experience is from working on THIS island since before there was another building on the beach south of Gulf View condo, except for what is now called the Marco Marriott Hotel. I am SURE I have lived here longer than you, but still cannot understand what the hell that has to do with common sense, and the fact I have seen more hacks as concerns home electricians, expert dock and lift self taught experts, structural idiots, and the like, as well as the damage to property and person that culminates from those practices. It's common sense, you need rules you get Mayhem. And don't act like these rules and permits somehow benefit me, or create some sort of dream world for contractors. It makes it dame tough on us to do our job. We are just smart enough to realize the reasons and importance of these rules.
jerk.

MrBreeze writes:

Duh, I would take exception to some of your post. First of all I am not a Jerk. Second, your take on rules and of the build dept are wrong. Being in construction fo 31 years I have seen many times when the inspector of the job actually knows less than the person performing the job. The "person" performing may or may not be a contractor but in most cases a "homeowner" with good skills can out perform a "contractor" these days because of the vast knowledge provide through the internet and the homeowner will spend more hours perfecting the job then a contractor can afford to.

Also, homeowners or "Mr,fix-it" as you refer has and will be more informed and have more tech. knowledge due to the internet. "Mr. Fix-it" will be standing at the same supply house as you and will be buying the same item as you. This angers you and many other "contractors". You admit "you and your employees wear uniforms" that tells me you are a company of fair size. You have been on the island for a long time. Before Marco was a city inpections were handled by the Collier County. Now that Marco is a City, island based business has the up with the local inspectors that means you.

I am not saying that you are not a fair or honest person I stated what I have observed as "Marco Contractors" I will say you are dead wrong to insult anyone who works on their own property and insult their work as "dangerous or life threating". Please give me an example of who died due to a homeowner working on their own home?

By the way, to obtain a Florida "contractors" licence other that HVAC or Electrical one just has to pass the written test and no time in trade is needed.

So, maybee your foot needs to retract from your mouth.

What license do you hold?????

MrBreeze writes:

Laduve, You are so misinformed. You say "does the dock meet electrical requirments so some guest do not get electrocuted?"

The homeowner replaced boards and refinished the dock. Who said anything about "Electrical" other than the Building Offical. Now think about this.What would happen if the homeowner did nothing to the dock? He left it alone, it was in compliance as far as anyone knows. He left it to rot did no repairs. Again no Code violations. You as a guest come over trip on bad wood get injured, sue homeowner.

Where is in your logic that preventing your potential injury is "shooting himself in the foot". Would you rather live next door to the dock falling in the water in disrepair or the "pristine" dock that the man was penelized for.

Wake up, you must work for the City.

LadueVGilleo writes:

in response to MrBreeze:

Laduve, You are so misinformed. You say "does the dock meet electrical requirments so some guest do not get electrocuted?"

The homeowner replaced boards and refinished the dock. Who said anything about "Electrical" other than the Building Offical. Now think about this.What would happen if the homeowner did nothing to the dock? He left it alone, it was in compliance as far as anyone knows. He left it to rot did no repairs. Again no Code violations. You as a guest come over trip on bad wood get injured, sue homeowner.

Where is in your logic that preventing your potential injury is "shooting himself in the foot". Would you rather live next door to the dock falling in the water in disrepair or the "pristine" dock that the man was penelized for.

Wake up, you must work for the City.

McBreeze, let me explain my post to you. My post says that one would think an attorney would have taken the steps necessary to ensure he was within compliance with the city before beginning his project. It is simple enough to do. If he had, none of this would have happened. He didn't, and what we see here is an attorney shooting himself in the foot. This approach is similar to looking both ways before crossing a street, or looking before you leap; I think you get the concept.

I never said anything about the gentleman leaving his dock in disrepair; it should have been fixed, but the way he went about fixing it was wrong.

And I do not work for the city.

duhuhuhha writes:

in response to rolomokat:

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)

Well sir, if that is truly the case, I stand corrected regarding your experience and offer my apologies pigeon holing you into the type of repairs I have seen made by "Mr. Fixits"... Just as I can only assume you have seen in "your career". But I would then mention that if you were such a licensed contractor, you know full well how much your statements totally go against all that you swore to adhere to when you obtained that license, as well as the reasons for NOT doing what you state you will do.

WizeOlMarco writes:

I'm told, but do not have direct knowledge, that a Marco homeowner was electocuted making dock electric repairs. Others may be able to explain. In the last year I pulled a permit to redeck a dock, despite no electric work involved, not so much as a fastener, had to have electric inspected. Per permit. One motivation for the City permiting is the link to the County tax assessor which will capture the added value resulting from the improvement. 'Mr. Fixit' circumvents this taxable link. Welcome to the System.

MrBreeze writes:

Wizeolmarco, Sir being in the electrical/mechanical trade I can assure you it would be highly not possible to be electrocuted except if there was voltage of 220v single phase for something like a large boat lift of say a hotub/spa. 110v single phase which is light&outlet power will not kill you. It can cause heart problems if you are shocked but 220v can and will kill you. So that might be the reason for the Electrical inspection tied to the dock inspection. Bottom line I think the man was correct in refinishing and repairing his dock. If a permit is needed big deal. Why penelize and charge him just give him a inspection and compliance thats all he was asking for. They just want to drum up fees so they can exist.

MrBreeze writes:

Laduev, So in your wourld being an attorney the man shold have "known" to call the City of Marco Island and ask if he needed a permit to repair/refinish his dock.Correct?

If the answer is yes, where does this end? Do you call the City and ask to paint your house? Service you HVAC system? Replace a sink,faucet,toilet? Run a outlet for a tv on the wall? A new cable line ? Garbage disposal or dishwasher? My bet is the "City" would tell you those are all "permitted jobs" meaning you need a permit and maybee a contractor to proceed. Is this the same as crossing the street? Is this the concept you want me to accept?

I think the man did nothing wrong. He took pride in his property. He excerised is property rights to better his home. If I were him being an attorney I would challenge this in the courts and he would prevail as the ordinance is flaued due to involving electrical inspection in dock repair or refinish.

The only way they can do this is through ordinance. This would be like saying if you were to paint your home it would then be subject to any other inspections they deem necessary to "attach" to the ordinance, This is how they get more fees and control of the homeowner. I hope you see my point on this issue.

MrBreeze writes:

Duhuh, So sir you are saying that obtaining a license you swore to uphold obtaining permits? I must have missed that ceremony. I know that a license holder is bound to uphold "code in workmanship" IE. State building code/ National building code BOCA, and ADA Code. I think you are on way to high a pedestal if you are saying the statements you do.

Tell me you have "never" done a job without pulling a permit. That means a job for a friend,relative or anyone else. Tell me you pull permits for everthing no matter what or who.

Permits and permitting are just compliance of work quality. If the work is done correctly the permit and inspection is useless. I have had inspectors who do not even know what they are inspecting, but they look at the quality of the job and they ask questions. Inspectors just seek Code Compliance and even at that the Code is up to be interpeted to the job at hand.

So, do not "label" others to your standards.

LadueVGilleo writes:

in response to MrBreeze:

Laduev, So in your wourld being an attorney the man shold have "known" to call the City of Marco Island and ask if he needed a permit to repair/refinish his dock.Correct?

If the answer is yes, where does this end? Do you call the City and ask to paint your house? Service you HVAC system? Replace a sink,faucet,toilet? Run a outlet for a tv on the wall? A new cable line ? Garbage disposal or dishwasher? My bet is the "City" would tell you those are all "permitted jobs" meaning you need a permit and maybee a contractor to proceed. Is this the same as crossing the street? Is this the concept you want me to accept?

I think the man did nothing wrong. He took pride in his property. He excerised is property rights to better his home. If I were him being an attorney I would challenge this in the courts and he would prevail as the ordinance is flaued due to involving electrical inspection in dock repair or refinish.

The only way they can do this is through ordinance. This would be like saying if you were to paint your home it would then be subject to any other inspections they deem necessary to "attach" to the ordinance, This is how they get more fees and control of the homeowner. I hope you see my point on this issue.

McBeenz,your posts state you've done contractor work. Did you ever rush into a job without adequately preparing for what needed to be done? I doubt it; I'm sure you followed policies/codes/laws/etc., to ensure the success of your endevors. This is a good working practice and common sense. The attorney in the story did not follow policies/codes/laws/etc. He now faces fines if he doesn't comply. There is a lesson here for all of us.

And this is the end of the discussion between you and me.

Don't try to twist my posts so you can try to engage me in an argument over some foolish logical extreme.

Good day.

26yearsonmarco writes:

Most of the comments seem to be coming from people with lots of experience in the home building business, so I would like to ask your candid opinion of the latest rising star who has over 25 homes under construction on Marco, and if it reminds you of the last falling star on Marco that left many people holding the bag???

Sparky100 writes:

As an electrician, I will tell you 120volts does kill. As far as an electrical review on a re-decking, it should not be required unless the electrical was modified or not inspected when it was first installed, I would fight them on that one.
I have water on my dock, do I need a plumbing review? I would have them show me the town ordances regarding docks, decking, electrical, plumbing and not do anything that is not required by state or local law. Best industry practices are just that, practices not legal requirements.
Looks to me like they are looking to pad the budget other ways because permits are down and we would not want to reduce staff. I can tell you what is next, the inspectors will start waiting at the bridge and following contractors onto the island to see were they are working, I use to see that all the time when I was in the trades.

MrBreeze writes:

Sparky, When was the last time you saw death from a 115/120 volt single phase at 15 or 20 amp in a residential panel? Maybee submerged I would guess, but I have never seen or even heard of it other than on the scary movie where the pool light blows out. Not possible as pools need Ground Fault (GFCI) Also I would assume docks are all Ground Fault where the outlet is outdoors and in a NEMA (wet) box with weather cover. I will stand corrected if I am wrong on the statement I have been wiring for 25 years and never seen anything less than 220v single phase hurt someone.

You are right it is just a money thing I think the homeowner can prevail in court as the ordinance is tied to another inspection the to a contractor which makes it unreachable for the homeowner to even do any of the work.

MrBreeze writes:

Laduev, We can argue all day long but I still do not agree with your position.

Homeowners have rights to work on their own property I am sticking with that. I see the greed of the City and the Contractors on the island and believe this it is not getting better.

Sparky100 writes:

MrBreeze, my licences are over 40 years old so I notice stories about electrucion. Two children were killed over the summer when they touched a dock from the water, their dad had left a frayed extension (not from a GFCI circuit) cord on the dock. I think it happened on a lake in the mid-west. somewhere.

1Paradiselost writes:

in response to MrBreeze:

Laduev, We can argue all day long but I still do not agree with your position.

Homeowners have rights to work on their own property I am sticking with that. I see the greed of the City and the Contractors on the island and believe this it is not getting better.

I agree... "Homeowners have a right to work on their own property"

When I do hire contractors, I always call ones located in Naples. There's a 35% mark up form contractors located on this island.

I guess that's why they call this place "Mark-up Island"

LadueVGilleo writes:

in response to MrBreeze:

Laduev, We can argue all day long but I still do not agree with your position.

Homeowners have rights to work on their own property I am sticking with that. I see the greed of the City and the Contractors on the island and believe this it is not getting better.

McSneeze

What is a matter with you? I don't have a position; I stated the obvious. The attorney "fought the law, and the law won"!

Why don't you go have some fun and stick your hand into a fan.

Putz.

MrBreeze writes:

Laduve, Typical answer. You cannot defend your position due to not having one. Then next is to insult to try to not look foolish to further your weak answer. I think you need to rethink your position before just insulting someone. Again, I am not a "Putz" no need for "sticking hand in fan" whatever that means.

Try to stay on topic and try to educate yourself with the facts other than your insults. Many folks find this to be a matter that is taken serious.

MrBreeze writes:

Sparky, Thanks for the correction. You have many more years in trade and I always look up to men like yourself for knowledge as you have been there, done it. I have been wiring for 25yrs and I strive to stay up on latest NEC and be safe. Recently, a friend of mine was hit with 240v 3phase from a rooftop as the disconnect was labeled wrong as he was there to service the unit. Had to be airlift to the hospital by helicopter but he did survive.

Is the Electrical inspection the City wants is that for GFCI and NEMA on dock electrical?

LadueVGilleo writes:

McBreeze, typical flame. You try to defend your attacks on others when you don't like their comments or opinions. Next you insult others to deflect
attention away from what must be your weak personality. It is the weak mind that uses vulgarity to express itself forcefully; such is your bullying
in this post. I think you need to rethink your approach for posting, rather than going off and insulting someone whose comments you don't like.
Try posting comments without going after somebody personally. Try to follow your own advice: stay on topic and try to educate yourself with the facts
rather than insulting others. Many folks find this to be a matter that is taken serious, and nobody should have to face your personal comments.

duhuhuhha writes:

in response to MrBreeze:

Wizeolmarco, Sir being in the electrical/mechanical trade I can assure you it would be highly not possible to be electrocuted except if there was voltage of 220v single phase for something like a large boat lift of say a hotub/spa. 110v single phase which is light&outlet power will not kill you. It can cause heart problems if you are shocked but 220v can and will kill you. So that might be the reason for the Electrical inspection tied to the dock inspection. Bottom line I think the man was correct in refinishing and repairing his dock. If a permit is needed big deal. Why penelize and charge him just give him a inspection and compliance thats all he was asking for. They just want to drum up fees so they can exist.

MrBreeze, if you are indeed in the electrical trade, then you know NOTHING of electromagnetic force. 24 volts can kill a person, let alone 110v or 220v. 220 volts is simply opposing degrees of sine waves in an AC current made up of two 110v lines. It is all a matter of resistance and electromagnetic force and hertz, and how it passes through the body and effects the heart. I am an electrician and a mechanical contractor, and it is basic electricity teachings in the first few months of school which teach us that fact. the only way to get shocked by 220v is to grab both ends of a 220 volt circuit and allow it to pass through the body, (something not likely to happen) Electrocution happens most frequently when one leg of 220v or from a 110v line passes through the body to ground. to get shocked by 220v, you need hold both opposing forces of 110v electrical lines and allow it to pass through your body.

the reasons for the permitting and electrical considerations when upgrading a dock is the fact so many docks on this island still have romex run under them with failed grounding connections and no GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) protection. Basically, in a home, when you get shocked, it is ALWAYS 110v that creates that shock.

As concerns the whole "drum up the fees" comment, Florida statutes touch on the subject of penalties involved for doing un-permitted or unlicensed work. Then there is a fine for doing work which required a permit and that permit not being pulled, and then the fee for the permit itself. for 85 bucks or less, this permit could have been pulled and all would have been done in compliance.

duhuhuhha writes:

in response to 1Paradiselost:

I agree... "Homeowners have a right to work on their own property"

When I do hire contractors, I always call ones located in Naples. There's a 35% mark up form contractors located on this island.

I guess that's why they call this place "Mark-up Island"

I beg to differ regarding pricing differences between here and naples... In EVERY case when I quote jobs, Naples contractors are higher in cost than I am. I see exactly the opposite as regards cost differences in quotes for work. As far as what contractors charge for repair work as it compares with new installation work of electrical or mechanical devices, with the costs of Workers comp, liability insurance, vehicle costs, gas, overhead, IRS commitments, non-billable time and the like, The average contractor with a service truck and an experienced technician in that truck running in the field "COSTS" the business over $100.00 per hour to keep that technician and truck in the field. The average mechanical or electrical contractor runs his/her business with an average of 5% to 7% net profit on a national average. Most large corporations would rather shut down their companies than try and live on such a small net profit. hell, I can point to hundreds of investors on this island that would laugh at a 7% return on their investment, why would you feel we should run our businesses at a lower profit that maybe you did in your life? They certainly didn't purchase the homes they live in with that sort of net return on their investments.

i do not know what your experience has been with contractors on this island, but other than a select few that I know of who are known for being way out of line in pricing, most of us are very fair in our pricing. I would suggest you compare more the next time you look for a price to complete work. You might just find that many of the contractors on Marco do not define the rule of high prices you speak of.

As concerns the idea that "all contractors charge too much", all i can say is that laws, codes, safety requirements and the cost of doing business are all factors we must take into account when quoting a job. To stay in business, we need to make a profit. I for one feel most of us complete that goal in a fair and equitable manner. I would hope you try and "invest and support" your local economy and keep these things in mind the next time you look for professional services.

MrBreeze writes:

Duhuh, Well professor, if you want to have a Electric lesson here on this blog lets go. First you speak of Voltage. The part you are missing is the Amperage. Electrons travel trough "conductors" Amperage determines how fast the travel. Your anaolgy of 24v can kill you but at what amp? 1amp 100amp 1000amp If you want to teach remember your first lesson Electrical power seeks the easy and fastest way to ground. That is why wire is made of copper or aluminum not plastic or wood. The human body with its make up of tissue and water which are good conductors make us vunerable to shock.
"Amperage" The speed of which an electron travels through or down a conductor. 7th grade Electronics Class. You must have missed that class.

Second. Safety. True most 220v shocks rarley happen by grabbing wires. If you are indeed a Electrical/Mechanical Contractor you should know that most fatal or injury shocks occur at the unit, panel, or disconnect.

Example, Tech forgets to turn off disconnect opens unit service panel starts to perform service or disconnect unit "Bam" gets hit. Tech thinks disconnect is off, it is in a bank of disconnects, does not check at unit starts service "bam" hit. Most times its a screwdriver that crosses the legs and the shock happens. Tell me you never seen that?

As far as the "dock" issue the NEC code at the time the homeowner stated 1985 the dock was installed by a contractor and wired by a contractor. NEC in 1985 was romex (residential) and ground lug near water. I have seen many underwater pool lights that have takoffs from the "fuse" panel to a sub box and run out to the pool light box in UG Romex with a ground #8 wire then to a 1/2" ground rod. That was code in 1971 we had such a pool as a kid and I would refuse to swim in it with the light on. That pool was wired by an "electrical contractor" and inpected by the City and passed.So your arguement is that now that GFCI has come along it is up to the homeowner to "upgrade" to current code due to repairing his deck. So lets say your company vechicles are not equipped with front/side/rear airbags. It has rust and the paint is faded you repaint it, you then should "upgrade to all airbags" so you or your workers are protected in the event of a collision right? Answer that, where does it end. Where do you draw that line?

MrBreeze writes:

Duhuh, As far as pricing and your "costs of doing business on the island I recently saw a HVAC replacement which costs the homeowner 8500.00 dollars and it was installed in one day.

Lets see, a AC condensor 3ton 16 seer, new air handler with heater along with 50'new copper line set with liquid line and dryer. Major line equipment my price 2466.70 tax included.

Thats 6,033.00 gross profit on the job. Lets say 10 man hours to install at 100.00 per hour 1,000.00 (your figure) lets include 500.00 dollars for misc.parts/minor duct fit. and refridgerent thats 4,533.00 Lets say 100.00 dollars for a permit. Thats 4,433.00 is that 5-7% profit?

Like a friend of mine used to say "It's not Heating and Cooling" It's "Cheating and Fooling"

1Paradiselost writes:

Dahuh sounds to me like he's trying to give us his best "sales job" trying to "close the deal". The closing lines of someone who is well schooled to justify their invoice to customers.

I used to pay my guys 50% of the gross! All 26 of them cried when I retired at 50 years old!

In other words we ALL made a good living.

What is see here in Florida is pure greed by some employers.

MrBreeze writes:

1Paradise, Thank you. Actually it is pure greed driven along with the "fear" of the "Code Police" that will get most folks. Duuh sounds like that type of salesman justifying his "costs" but working on a mere 5-7% which we all know is false. It is a shame that people on Marco Island are subject to this but with the internet one can make better choices and get a fair deal.

I am not saying to work for free just be honest and you will have more work than you can handle. If duuh told the whole story most HVAC contractors charge 10% markup on the equipment package then a fair rate for the install. I am fortunate to be able to install my own HVAC and purchase wholesale.

I would not be able to afford "contractor" prices on Marco Island. I feel sorry for people on limited incomes or retired that have to pay out the nose. I show my neighbors how to do many things themselves, help them if needed, and advise pricing to them. I feel it is the least a good neighbor can do.

Hemanor writes:

Code enforcement should be going after all the unlicensed contractors and subcontractors flying under the radar.

INPURSUIT writes:

The biggest problem we have on this island is that code enforcement only work select hours on weekdays; hint - illegal work peaks on the weekends.

MrBreeze writes:

Inpursuit, No you have it wrong. The biggest problem we have on this island is the "Code Board".

dc5799 writes:

So who hit the flagpole?

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