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Well srike, sometimes what you don't see can hurt you. But we can only keep pitching and hopefully get some movement. With the Moss lightning rod out of the way and a new council too, maybe that can break the deadlock and get on with addressing the issues instead of litigating and mud slinging.
I know how a septic system is supposed to work. My direct experience in this area says that three feet does not make the effluent drinking water, it is still effluent. As far as getting "out to sea", that is one of the greatest falicies. The ocean is not able to absorb all our mistakes and remain unaffected. That type of thinking is what currently that allows all the big "O" lake water to be flushed, which is believed to be the root cause of many issues, reduced fish stocks and red tide being two.My beef? Simple. We need a comprehensieve policy that covers ALL waste disposal. Why? For two main reasons. First, we need to take care of our most important resource on Marco, the water. To do that you need to be able to know what the current status is out there and to control it. Septic or sewer should really make no difference as Port Marco illustrates. The Sanibel situation is another example. They are closing beaches due to one private system not working properly and not being regulated.
The second reason is that the trend is for the water quality standards to increase. The world is finding out that it takes very little to upset the balance in the water and produce a sizeable impact. Therefore the comfort we all have that our systems don't polute must be seen through what the acceptable minimums are. If they change, so can our compliance or non-compliance. It is tougher to control a distributed system like septics, but not impossible. Many communites use this as a resason to go to a central sewer, like Sanibel. But again, it doesn't have to be the only solution. Sadly, we have many people walking around spreading the myth that a septic tank or a sewer is the perfect solution. They all are a compromise, depending on the standards you want to maintain. When conctructed properly, inspected and maintained regularly septics are a reasonable device. But if they are not maintained or regulations change? It seems those on septic reject the idea of regular inspections and anything else for that matter. Why, I don't know.
My point is that to solve our issues and hopefully improve what we have for the future we need to regulate the septics AND deal with the sewer system we have now. A comprehensieve appraoch could actually allow this island to lead in this area not to just reach the minimums, but set an example of how an enlightened appraoch to water quality could work. But it would take real leadership to do so.
But I am afraid in this toxic atmosphere we have set up now, that may prove an impossible dream. After all the excuses and name calling are done, we have a decision to make. What type of island do we want to have and what are we willing to pay to get it? The current council didn't take the challenge and the next appears they don't want to. So, it will likely require a wake up call, like Sanibel is getting, or an outside authority to step in to make the decision for us. Sad really.
strike3 - Your position on Issler has been clear....for months. The point is you find out when you check your septic on a regular schedule, like most people should do and the septic industry reccomends. So your logic, while convienient, does not hold water, pun intended. So the story is not non-sense. It illustrates that we don't know the status of all the independant systems on the island and given their age, will become increasingly suspect. Which illustrates the point that to be in compliance any system including tanks or sewers, need to be regularly checked. Remember "trust, but verify" still applies. So if you stand back and settle down a bit there strike 3, ( Did you take your meds?) maybe someone will pay attention to what you say for once. Instead of assuming what you wrote in your last line, as soon as they see your name.
Swearing, ignorance made audible.
Sorry BBYrone, just checked the latest on the WINK web site again and the article quotes the Mayor as saying that the cause was the private sewer AND septic systems, you can read the quote on the WINK site, if you care to. But it really doesn't matter as it is an opinion, which like yours, isn't worth much without verification. I guess the Council should issue a release saying they are embarassed by Port Marco. Makes you wonder about how many more are out there. Again, a well regulated and periodically checked system (sewer or septic) is still the best insurance. Perhaps with all the arm waving something that actually can work will arise.
Gee "Columbus", still trying to position yourself as a sewer expert? I thought your tenure in that role was finished after I called you on spreading misinformation on the Sanibel issue and you quickly went "radio silent". No such luck I guess. Any comments on the Port Marco fiasco, O' Swami of all things septic? Probably not as the facts don't fit your rhetoric.
Lolala, that was the most self serving bit of tripe I have ever seen! I had wondered if any of the anti -sewer crowd would have the guts to post anything after this fiasco. Your rationalizations are a priceless example of twisting facts to fit your own slanted view. "No one noticed", as reason to minimize or ignore a clear violation? You " know the type of soil", do you dig core samples in your spare time? You need to be tarred with the same brush you are so quick to use on anyone who takes even a middle road on the sewer issue. Come on, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Proper regulation and enforecment should apply to either septic or sewer, no exceptions
Dear mr Columbus, Just to get some facts straight, the Sanibel situation is not about the City's central sewers. It is about private systems, including septic, that are not meeting federal and state guidelines. WINK has done several reports on this subject should you care to take the time to check out. Since I know you and your favored four candiates would never knowingly be dishonest, selectivly use facts out of context, or misinform; something else must be at play out of your control. Makes you wonder what would happen if the Sunshine Laws covered the workings of those on the outside of the process too.
Lolala, be careful with your objectivity and definition of "leadership" here. It would be nice to let the man present his qualifications himself and be given more than one article to do so. It is interesting how much fervor just one new face has added to the debate. Could it be that another voice not solidly in the "Anti-STRP' camp is raising the uncomfortable possibility of not getting a four vote majority?
Back to qualifications, if one was to look at the "Gang of Four" (sorry, couldn't resist) candidiates I would suspect you could build just as superficially daming case as Lolala just did with this candidiate.
Sad to say the dominance of the partisans on this message Board doesn't allow for much debate of the issues and facts. Attacking peoples background, credibility, motives, time on the island, etc. is so much faster and easier. What passes for constructive debate has degenerated into a few people shouting at others and agreeing with themselves. Based on that, these Boards can hardly be relied upon to accurately gauge the majority opinion, however unconfortable that may be to some. You may be hearing your own echos and confusing that with a crowd. Let's not forget that 80% of the island is already on the sewer system and they want to be represented too. So the process will unfold, let's just hope we can get beyond the posturing and pontificating and try and raise the bar a little this time around. It has been said many times, you get the type of representation you deserve.
Gee Ed, thanks for setting such a high tone by challenging a new candidiates background, qualifications and relevance before any of us mere mortals( those who don't camp out at every council meeting ) the opportunity to hear his views on a variety of subjects. Not just your standards the STRP and Mr. Moss.
It is so much easier with those who are already declared. Whose position to date on most everything can be summed up as "No, what was your question?". You can really get a sense of the opportunity for participative and the potential for enlightned leadership with that appraoch. Hopefully, we will get to probe the other four candidiates as well as this one about what their PLAN is for the future. Assuming they can get beyond the rhetoric around the single issue of the STRP and actually present a cogent case.
For those who haven't already closed their minds and are not inclined to prejudge based on a single issue, perhaps this paper should ask each candidiate to present position papers and/or agree to a moderated debate? So the full electorate can hear everyone out and make up their own minds.
Maybe, just maybe, all the wisdom isn't confined to those we have heard from, ad nauseum, to date.
Joey, I think you are right about the poop smell, but the rest of you may have the wrong source. That house is located very close to the key in Caxambas that the pelicans have defoliated and destroyed. If the wind is right, that place gets a full dose as do many others along that shore. I am sure that fact didn't show up in the sales brochure!
The biggest issue with this house, which I have been in, is it was a "bridge too far" for a spec. home. It clearly reflects the builders ideas of what a high end house should be. The problem is if you have enough money to afford a house like that, you want to see your ideas refelcted in the design, not someone else's. Don't get me wrong, it is a great place, but people in that bracket are not going to settle. They don't have to. It would not surprise me if they spend a couple million getting it the way they want it. Like 26 yrs said, good try and glad to get out.
Only if you go first Joey, only if you go first.
Sunshine2, be careful with that attitude. On these pages you may be in for a rude ride. You must understand, here in Marco we have the only 100% perfect, non-polluting septic system in the world. I am surprised we don't have legions of people lined up to investigate how we accomplish this feat. You would think from these pages that any city that has put in central sewers has foisted a fraud on the people. Don't let all the Florida and other costal cities following this same path confuse you. It really should be called the "Marco Miracle" and placed prominently in all island advertising. Tongue firmly in cheek.
Now to save time, you are going to hear after this post a pile (pun intended) of information about how centralized sewers are the root of all evil and any and all who support them are either on the take, mentally unfit, in league with the Devil or all of the above. Don't blame me, I'm just repeating here.
Seriously, this situation has gotten so out of control that it is hard to see the forest for the trees. The only thing that seems to stick out, kind of like the elephant in the room is....money. Funny, you will see all sorts of denials that this is not the issue and it is never spoken of, while almost everyting else is. While no one admits it, the phrase I keep coming back to is "It ain't the money, its the money".
So this election may well see the termination of the current program and the firing of "The Great Satan of Marco", a.k.a. Mr. Moss. Especially since at least four out of five candidiates are loudly saying "NO" on STRP but, to date, have been pretty quiet on what their alernative solution is. Let's not forget that 80% of the island is already on sewers and they will be heard from too.
So to your point, the probability for more wasted money is high. But it is early yet and hopefully we will see if the election process produces any clarity. God knows we could use some. Enjoy the reponding posts, let the flogging begin!
Don't worry "exposed". I will fight for your right to say what you think, however distasteful it may be. But I don't have to listen either. Having visited two out of the three countries you mention, I think I'll stay here. If nothing else, just to make you uncomfortable. So save the trite communist references for someone who cares.
What I and a few others are trying to do is see if we can raise the level of commentary from personal attacks and hate speech to someting a little more beneficial. I'll leave the name calling to those who are more suited to it, for whatever good they think it does.
Just because someone disagrees with your point, doesn't mean they don't believe in free speech. It may mean they have heard your story before and saying it louder or nastier hasn't changed their mind. Progress is usually made through communication and compromise. Something that we seem in short supply of these days.
You are right 15yrs. maybe we should all hit the suggest removal button more often, on both sides. As it is hard to detect a reasoned position on either side as emotional responses, stoked by poitics and an "Us vs. Them" mentality have gotten control. But as we are into the election season, this is likely not going to happen. Should be an interesting ride.
You are right Marcogap. Most of the people that plague this site are like trolls under the bridge, they only come out to throw stones and accusations. Let's also not forget the incessant anti -sewer / political hacks too. Same names, same stilted or juvenile comments. It is sad really that this is all they can come up with for entertainment. But it is a free country and they have the right to be ignorant and boring, the price you pay for a free country.
Hawke, I have an idea for you. Why don't you number your comments! You know, a number 1 means blame Moss, a number 2 is blame the Council. Number 3 is blame both Moss and the council. Since you always end up at the same place regardless of the subject, it will save you time and the rest of some grief. The grief part related to trying to follow your twisted logic, which always ends up with an "ad hominem" (against the man) attack anyway.
What do you think, worth a try?
Gee Joey, I thought you already had that job. Or was it court jester?
The current council didn't plant the seeds of our current problem. Low initial system quality from the developer and poor maintneance and/or inspections of sewer and water lines did. Always a problem with a minimum required appraoch.
If issues start to occur that require a rate increase to fix, then the howling starts. Spreading the cost over as wide a base and time frame as possible is the usual reaction. Sound familiar? Its tough to sell the cost of prevention. Want to know why they selected the tanks you mention "numbers"? Lowest initial cost. Go the other way they are profligate spenders.
So how to fix a system in need of major repairs when no one wants to take responsibility, financial or otherwise? If you do take action over these objections then you have "forced" a decision. I am not sure anyone can win in this debate with all the factions that have erupted. The use of "experts" is no guarantee either. Both sides have used suspect sources (Ed listenting to a group that is paid by people who put in septic systems for a living or sewers is risky).
We own a used car, for lack of a better analogy, and have to deal with the costs involved with keeping it going. 80% of the island is on sewer and 100% use the water. Eventually all systems must be replaced and if we are socially consious a realistic maintneance / replacement process must be determined. But that is an elective decision. You can chose to be be proactive or reactive (use a crisis to justify everthing). And the one thing I have learned is that if you wait for the crisis it always costs more.
The question we have to ask ourselves is does the current plan reflect what is right for the long term or what those in the responsible positions felt they could sell? What is needed is a comprehensieve plan that addresses these issues proactivly, but that will cost real money. Have you ever seen this work? Not often, because so many wish to push the cost off on to the next generation, or the next owner or the next council.
Saying no or stop to everything is not a long term solution. And we can't go back to the "good old days" these are the good old days. So I am sure the celebrations will be loud if and when the new council stops the STRP. But I will be very interested when the 80% of the island on sewers and the 100% on the water system ask a simple question, "What's next"? So far that conversation has been very quiet. Don't forget the tyranny of the majority still can apply. Those that get elected on rhetoric seldom get the job done or see a second term.
Foster, I hope your house sells, you have put up a good fight. Maybe we will get the chance to do it right this next election. But since it will require compromize and some real leadership, I am not holding my breath. Short term, avoid the pain, NIMBY thinking is what go us into this situation. Using the same appraoch doesn't hold much promise of getting us out.
Oh please Hawk1, get a grip. According to you and your "science" Marco Island has, magically, the only septic tanks in the world that do not impact the surrounding groundwater. Here's a news flash, ALL waste treatment methods impact the enviornment, it is a matter of degree. Talk about conventional wisdom. Before you invoke how enviornmentally friendly all the septic tanks are, you had better think about one thing. What happens when they start to wear out? Which should be soon for many of the original island properties. What do we do when the same people who are against paying for sewers balk at fixing their tanks and fields? Since you are so sold on "proof", prove that this won't happen. Be honest, you just don't want to cough up the money. The rest is claptrap. If we stop the sewers, perhaps we should put in a rigourous testing and inspction plan for all you septic devotees. Now there is an idea who's time may have come.
Problems are in the eye of the beholder my friend. A derelict out in the middle of a bay you pass on the way out is not the same as one that is close enough to smell. A wise man once said, "your rights end where my nose begins". As I said, the ordinance should shift to where it started. We will see if you have successfully "silenced" this vocal minority. Without some guidelines you may see a surge in the mysterous malady known as 'late night line breakage syndrome". Odd ins't it if someone agrees with your view they are a valiant few speaking up for their rights, if not they are rich, spoiled malcontents out of touch with the common man. I'd be carful before you wrap yourself too tight in the blanket of FL state law. Their history anin't all that great either. Time will tell.
To all you council Critics: The ordinance was meant to address / prevent abandoned boats, which can and do occur ( anyone visit Goodland lately? ) and public nusance issues ( anyone ever had a nieghbor who had a loud party or parked a junk car in their front yard? ). Both of whch can and do exist. Is this ordnance the right one? As Cap't says, no. Is their a potential issue, yes. The vocal minority succeeded, they tried it and it has failed. Last time I checked my H.S. civics book that is the way it is supposed to work. Hopefully we will get it right the next time.
The rest of you who pile on and twist anything to make your needlessly repetetive point against the council and Moss, please do us a favor. Give us all a break and focus your attention on the election. Spilling your bile using all the tortured and infantile rhetoric has gotten BORING to say the least. About the only thing you haven't blamed the council for is bad weather, which would clearly require you calling for Moss to commit suicide on the corner of Bald Eagle and Collier. The system will work, although not as fast as you want. The electorate may throw out the current scoundrels and put in yours. Then the fun will start again. It is easy to be a critic, leadership is hard. Democracy, it is a messy process, but it is better than the alternatives. Especially with some civility.
Let's keep pushing Lolana. We can still get there!
Ed, sorry to say the issue with "one or the other" with septics vs sewer has to do with hydraulics, not some machiavellian plot. The same experts that say they are OK also know you can't engineer an either or system. The reason they crush / fill them has to do with future safety issues not the government trying to take something away. Finally, a cistern isn't a septic tank, different design requirements and a whole other story. Not sure how your math works for $300 /yr for life. What you are describing is an insurance program. But a new field, where the problems usually arise, are not free either and can easily run $10K to replace. Sooner or later depending on use and up keep they all have to be replaced.
Again, can we stop with the name calling? It is ignorance made audible. It may also be a part of why people are digging in their heels on both sides of this discussion. Everyone is frustrated and looking for a way to vent, but name calling doesn't help. Keep the focus on the issue and people may listen. Make it personal by name calling and you will get nothing. But I guess you know that by now anyway.
Happy please. You say it isn't about money and development but check the post from lowus. It may not be about the money for you, but you may be in a smaller club than you think. You believe the enviornmental angle is compeling and rises above the fixation on money. Maybe, maybe not. But it doesn't appear that the difference is significant enough to stop the momentum. Experts / advocates are as easy to find as a shell on our beach. Net result - stalemate.
Back to my earlier point, if all the effort had been focused on getting the up and down vote we probably would have it by now. I am sure it would have been a relativly straightforward process to gather the required signatures on this idea. But again, it seems to have escaped from a real effort to do it from both sides? How come? If all the "antis" banded together and drove for this one issue it would get done. Then everyone would be able to move on. But don't forget the tyranny of the majority can work both ways, and many times does. Unless something simple to understand and easy to grasp is put before the electorate, as they say in the middle east:
"The dog barks, but the caravan passes"
I would be careful throwing around the label of being "misinformed" just because someone doesn't agree with you. That is how the mudslinging starts. It is tough to argue the "facts" when they don't clearly support your position. We purchased a lemon because those in positions of responsibility at the time made the decision it was better to control our own destiny. Maybe you were not here when we had the problems under the old arrangement. Hindsight is always 20/20, fact is we own it now. I would also not characterize as compelling, the evidence you cite to try and make the case there is a stampede to eliminate central sewers. I have a surprise for you, BOTH metods can be made to work, the difference is the trade offs both short and long term. Niether is superior and debating the differences a waste of time. Let's say we stop expansion. Then what? Let's start with what "professionally managed" means. That is quite an open ended statement don't you think? Does that mean a verified and systematic sampling process staffed by professionals? How much would that cost? What are the citeria? Who would pay for it? I wonder how our septic tank fans will feel when they have their systems condemned, because yes Happy, they have a fixed life too. Be honest, all you really want to do is avoid the connection cost and a torn up road. And maybe the false hope that this will somehow slow development. Wrapping yourself in pulp fiction enviormentalism, to paraphrase an old saying, is the first refuge of the scoundrel. It would be refreshing to hear that simple truth come out instead of all the pontification, smoke and mirrors, arm waving, junk lawsuits and small town political wrangling. Let's put it up to an island wide vote. Sewer expansion, up or down. With 78% of the island on sewers, I am sure the outcome would be interesting for those of you who are not. Strange that has not been pursued by both sides don't you think? At least then the cottage industry we have created of beating ourselves up in front of a laughing world and further damaging the reputation of the island we love would cease. Honestly, if the fury expended on this issue had been directed to a productive area, it gives one pause as to what could have been accomplished.
Well we are getting close to the "silly season " for those who will run. A couple things to keep in mind before getting too far:1.) The islands infrastructure needed to be replaced. News flash: sewers, roads, schools; they all wear out. To not step up and replace them, however it may disturb someone in the short term, is the surest way to ruin. Can you say social security? If Collier being above water during the next hurricaine saves lives, will the naysayers remember? I doubt it. Was the dust and traffic a pain? You bet. Do I like the way south Collier looks and flows now? Fantastic. 2.) Saying "no" to everything is not a strategy or good governance. I am sure the single issue "Anti - Sewer" crowd will focus on this. But after the dust settles, then what? Where will the LEADERSHIP come from? Sadly, we have not seen much other than rhetoric from the critics and the candidiates already declared. As the old saying goes "The first liar doesn't have a chance" with this bunch. It is much easier to be a critic, you don't have to DO anything, just citicize. Those potential candidiates and their cheerleaders who dominate this message Board take note. Your time may come. Being a critic is easy, leadership is HARD.3.) The island is changing. The middle class people who initially enjoyed the island are now being replaced by those with higher incomes. Those who have been here for twenty years or so are afraid of the trend. They could get out at a handsome profit, even after the recent correction, but this is not an attractive solution. They can't stop the change so people tend to focus on what they can control, oh lets say...sewers. Especially when scare tactics are used that pulls everyone down to the worst political level. Character assasination, useless lawsuits; sound familiar? This situation is being repeated in many areas like Marco around the country. Will it be difficult for those caught in the transition, yes. But not impossible if we have LEADERSHIP and we are all willing to COMPROMIZE for the best overall solution. That means if everyone makes a little sacrifice, we will all benefit. Pushing all the tough decisions to the next generation or the next guy is why this country has many of the problems we face to day. So let the process begin and be careful what you wish for, you may actually get it.
Well it is finally out, Ed. Since everyone else is not God, then it must mean you are God. It has to be a terrible burden to bear that the majority have not recognized your devine right to rule all elected officials. It must be very upsetting to a "tin god" like yourself when everyone doesn't snap to attention and OBEY you. Listening is not the same as agreeing, which you seem to think are interchangeable. Unless you have a mouse in your pocket, I would hold off on the royal "we" and find another comparison than God to try and make your feeble and repetetive points. Or has your campaign for office already started? I hope so, turn about would be fun to play with you. God may forgive you, mere mortals like us may not.
For the love of God, another conspiracy theorist. If you had read the whole paper you would have seen that the city audit results were clean. That means no one spent funds for anything that wasn't proper. As far as the bridge delay, read the article! The COAST GUARD is responsible! "Nothing" means the bids are out and they are waitng for them to return. Something that Kaiser should have pointed out. Would you like the name of the Coast Guard Commander so you can start a Witch Hunt over there?? We need a break from you people.
Foster and Neylon the conspiracy twins strike again! When will these two get on with their lives so the island can too? Don't tell me, I am missing all the intrigue and real criminal skull duggery. I wonder if after using every scare tactic, ad hominum attack and flimsy legal flim flam, they realize they have done more to drive down property values than anything they accuse the City of. Not to mention the legal fees we are paying. The arrogance amazes. Why don't you both run for office and see what the world really thinks of you. But then we would lose your theater of the absurd.
Lolala, where have you been. The "Asbestos" issue is a complete joke. The hysteria around this substance defies belief and is one of the largest scams perpetrated on the public. We ALL are paying for the lawyers to get rich. Too bad many fell victim to the scare tactic. Putnam - do you really believe that $10 - 15K will slow a sale? I would be careful talking about honesty and fairness. Hall left that at the door a long time ago. I just hope he or you run for council, turnabout if fair play. Won't hold my breath for that. Much easier to be a critic, you never have to take a risk and make a decision.
You have got to be kidding.....conspiracy theorists take note. The Macro Council cabal is in full swing. A threat behind every palm tree! Talk about twisted logic. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but NO ONE is that smart. What you are seeing is the law of supply and demand and real estate speculation colliding at the same time. Did the market get overheated? Yes, is it a disaster, no. Do the math - lots that sold for $130K in 1999 are on the market for $700K, down from $1.0M. Not a home run, but not a bunt single either. Given that the baby boom generation is now retiring in huge numbers, this situation is being repeated all over the country anywhere near water and will continue for the next ten years at least. Will this squeeze out older residents, possibly. But they will exit with a tidy stipend. On the STRP, you paint a nice picture, but one that is unrealistic. Sometimes our elected officials have to make a tough choice. The island infrastructre was a disaster. Many people have a NIMBY attitude "Not in my back-yard". That short sightedness is what allowed the infrastucture to get in such a bad state in the first place. Could they have done a better job of communicating, yes. Would it have mattered to the NIMBY's - no. Catching up on infrastructure is always a tough way to go, but if no one is willing to step up until a crisis is reached, than what we have is what you get.
Ah, the joys of an emotional client with an appetite for appeals. Near and dear to the heart of any trial lawyer. No matter the outcome or damge done, they get paid. So sorry, did the best I could. Let the fees roll in.
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